John S. Rinaldi's Ode to Automation

3 – Guru Meets Guru

July 20, 2021 John S. Rinaldi Season 1 Episode 3
John S. Rinaldi's Ode to Automation
3 – Guru Meets Guru
Show Notes Transcript

Two of industrial automation’s biggest voices join forces in this week’s episode and tackle key topics facing the industry. 

Join host John S. Rinaldi and automation instructor and blogger Shawn Tierney of Insights In Automation, as they discuss:

  • Expansive learning and training opportunities from Insights In Automation
  •  The future of the PLC
  •  If cybersecurity on the factory floor is even possible

Connect with John:
Email | LinkedIn | Newsletter | YouTube | Blog | Books

For all things industrial automation, visit rtautomation.com. 

John Rinaldi:

[Intro music] Hello, this is John Rinaldi and welcome to the network c onnectivity podcast. We do this every couple of weeks talk to some important person in the automation world. And today we are lucky enough to have Shawn Tierney with u s automation, trainer, blogger consultant, and a whole host of other things, Shawn does that mean you c an't hold a job?

Shawn Tierney:

Yeah. When you said important, I'm like I'm in the wrong place.

John Rinaldi:

Usually when someone has all of those different kinds of activities that they're involved in, they can't find a job. So who are you? What are you doing?

Shawn Tierney:

Yeah, so, uh, my company is insights and automation and we really there's two parts of the business. We have a, we publish a helpful news and how to articles at theautomationblog.com. And we also host several shows on YouTube. The automation show, the automation podcast, the automation minute, automation tech tips, and so on. And, uh, I also teach at theautomationschool.com. So I'm teaching PLC's HMI SCADA, mostly, um, mostly Rockwell though. Uh, Siemens has been great lately and we're gearing up to start teaching the Siemens products and working with other vendors as well. Um, and, uh, and so really, really just fortunate to be able to, uh, help people out with both the blog and the school.

John Rinaldi:

So how did you get into this? I mean, where did you, where did you start and how did this all come about?

Shawn Tierney:

Well, many years ago I was born. No, just kidding. Um, you know, I spent 25 years in the field and, uh, the number one question that that users had was, you know, after I tell them about the products and show them how to use them and help them troubleshoot what was going wrong is how do I learn about this stuff? You know, how do I get up to speed and really this th the options weren't really good, right? It's either you go for a four year degree at one of the very few colleges that, uh, your particular vendor works closely with, or you, um, you talk your boss and the sending you to a week long,$2,000 course. And, um, you know, I, people have been told me about the books that were out there and about, you know, different, uh, different options. And they really didn't like any of them. So after 25 years on the road, after doing a million miles after visiting over a thousand plants and sending through over 50 weeks of Rockwell training, I decided, I said, you know what, not only did I want to get out of the car, you know, at the end, I was spending eight hours driving to work four hours. So the territory is just get bigger over time. And, and, and you, you drive, you know, all over the, it seems like all over the world to, to spend an hour or two with the, with, uh, somebody who need your help. So at the end of the day, I said, Hey, let's launch insights and automation. We'll do the automation blog, where we can share tips and tricks, things that really don't fit into a curriculum. But, you know, you learn by using the products by, by, um, actually just setting them up again in the work. And then the school is where we'll sell training and, um, teach people, you know, soup to nuts, how to, how to use PLC's, HMI's, and SCADA. That's what we do right now. We're always looking, I'm personally, always looking to bring in other instructors to teach with me to, you know, um, you know, teach on, on products or on topics that I'm not an expert on, but creating a course and people don't realize this creating a course is a lot of work. It is just editing the video after you filmed it. Even just what I do on YouTube, the editing is usually three or four times longer than the actual recording. And the recording is, is typically, you know, you have a couple of takes worth of recording. You know, things go wrong, the lights go off, planes fly over, dogs bark, you know, from where it doesn't download correctly, you know, the computer reboots, you know, things happen. So it's, it's time consuming, but it's, we've had great success. We've had over 4,000 people, uh, uh, register at the automation school. Um, a lot of times there'll be companies who've registered five or 10 people at a time. And, um, we've had over 500 reviews and the average is 4.7 out of five stars. It feels like we're really helping really helping people with affordable courses starting, you know, at$30, the same price we set back in 2014 with our Kickstarter.

John Rinaldi:

Wow. So who are you? Who are you talking to them on layers? Are you talking to control engineers? Mostly? Is it electricians, uh, tech, you know, network people? What do you have there?

Shawn Tierney:

Well, yeah, typically the people that I talk to my background, I was certified in and focused on PLC HMI, SCADA, and MES in my twenty-five years, working as a, an authorized distributor specialist. So most of the people, most of my content, most of the people I work with, uh, people who need to understand that. And so there, there are people who are either electricians, technicians, or engineers who need to get up to speed on those products, or ran into an issue with those products. So on the blog, we get a lot of people say, Hey, thanks. I was just searching on this bug. I couldn't figure out how to fix it. Thank you for, uh, thank you for, uh,

John Rinaldi:

Give me an example I'm not a PLC guy, you know, I don't do PLC programming and understand what PLCs do I have program PLCs, but really not my specialty. So when you say, you know, what, what kind of, what kinds of little tips and tricks do you help people with? I don't really.... I'm not sure that I understand.

Shawn Tierney:

Yeah. So it's not just me writing. I also have freelancers that write for us. So we have a regular freelancer writes every week, Brandon and he's great. And, uh, Siemens just sent him a PLC to start writing on that. So he's been writing on that, but, you know, we we'd like to start at the ground level, like how do you select a Siemens PLC or an Allen-Bradley PLC or a Mitsubishi PLC or WAGO or PLC Extra Automate. So, you know, I work with those vendors to get samples to come in and we're always looking for new vendors. We just had the guys at automation direct sending us a couple of starter packs, the PO we just got a PLC next starter pack, uh, uh, ordered from the great guys over at, uh, uh, Phoenix context. So we work with the vendors and then we try to take a look at it and say, okay, so I've never used this before. How do I use it? So how do I select it? How do I connect it? Where do I get the software? Is there a trial version of the software? You know, how do I write my first program? You know, turn a light on and off, do a little motor control.

John Rinaldi:

Are you targeting mostly people that have little to no experience or they are the whole range from those people all the way up to the people that are experts been doing PLC programming for 20 years?

Shawn Tierney:

Yeah, a lot of my articles, the ones I've written, I think I have over 800 since, uh, well, if we don't go back to 99, if we go back to, when I launched theautomationblog.com as a, you know, relaunched it as theautomationblog.com, I've written, I believe over 800 articles and over 300 videos. And a lot of them deal with the basics, like getting started, like you've never used this before, but there's probably 25% of them are like, how do I get this to work? You know? So, you know, I know how to do EtherNet/IP to a drive, but how do I do Modbus to a VFD? You know what I'm saying? You know, and things like that and were thanks to people like IFM and P& F we're getting into a IO link and that's going to be the next series, uh, that we have coming up. Yeah. So, yeah, they they've been great to work with both companies and, uh, um, you know, after we get through the SMC wireless IO, which is just a really exciting product, um, we're going to be moving into IO Lincoln, doing a lot with that and Siemens sent us an IO module and Blago, so, you know, we're look, we're really, we we've kind of moved out of our here's all the bugs you find when you're, or, or the challenges you have when you work on with the project. And, you know, here's how you use a new product from scratch. And now we're working into, um, working with new products that the vendors sample us. So here's how you use IO link is, you know, how this works and how that works.

John Rinaldi:

What do you, what do you think is, uh, how do you think things are going to change if people still going to be using PLCs 10 years from now, 20 years from now is, you know, is this, are we going to have ladder logic forever?

Shawn Tierney:

That is a great question. And I, we kind of talked about this previously in another phone call, but, you know, I, I, I'm a big sci- fi reader. I consume a lot of sci-fi novels while the wife is watching the, the wedding dress show and the re redo your house show and all these, all these shows that really don't use typically appeal to husbands. But, um, so I'm, I'm huge into sci-fi and, you know, and I love when they start talking about the control systems on the spaceships. And to me, it just seems like they will always be distributed control. They will always need you, oh, you'll never want to run everything across a network to one single point of failure, whether it's an engine control module or, or a shield control module, or, you know, or a dock and control module today, you know, we would have a pump control module or, you know, or a filter control module, or, you know, whatever comes on the skid, you know, a clean in place module, but whatever, whatever it is, you'll always want distributed control. And, and whether we call it a programmable controller or just a controller where there is typically, they just call it in, in sci-fi. I think we will always have them. And I, I think there's a lot of people who, who talk about no, you're going to have everything in the cloud and it's going to run everything. And that's just makes no sense to me.

John Rinaldi:

I agree too. I think, I think there's one of the things that occurred to me lately, that if I wanted to find was a, a big nation state with a lot of money, and I wanted to attack American manufacturing, I would put people in these cloud companies on my payroll and have them work there, and then help me figure out how to attack these, their users essentially through the, through that cloud network. And, uh, and that would seem to me like a great entry way of a way to do that all at once. You can like the solar winds thing, you attack solar winds, and you'll attack 500 companies the same time. So you attack Microsoft Azure or AWS, how many bout tens of 10,000 companies you c an attack i t t he s ame t ime?

Shawn Tierney:

You know? And it, it goes deeper than that. And if there's any, uh, elected officials listening, please put down, put down your, uh, the TV camera you're, you're standing in front of and, and, and dismiss all the interviews you're doing and go to work and give us a law that says you may not ship us a product that can create its own ad hoc wifi or network without the user's express written consent that he wants that done. In other words, there are products from TCL and other Chinese manufacturers that today will, uh, connect back to the internet, create, um, um, ghosted, uh, networks and wireless connections. And I'm not saying anything wrong. I mean, these companies, I use them too, you know, but that should be illegal. I mean, if I buy a device, it should not be, for instance, my brother is a, a, is a retired after 21 years in the Marines, he's a hero, he fought overseas and all the wars we talk about on a regular, on the news, on a regular basis. And, um, you know, he was telling me they bought some, uh, they bought some, uh, formerly IBM now, um, Lenovo, which, which is a brand, I like they bought some of their, uh, their computers and they weren't able to use them. They have to throw them away because they were trying to contact China. Right. And it could have been for something as simple as a firmware update. You know what I'm saying? Because everything we have wants firmware updates, right? They want to keep us safe. They want to keep us protected. They want to roll up a firmware update.

John Rinaldi:

Wasn't that the case with the drones who told the drone to go home and, and tries to it was trying fly to China?

Shawn Tierney:

Ah I didn't hear that one.

John Rinaldi:

Yeah because that was well, that was home base, you know, uh, have you worked at all with the, uh, 61 4 99 standard?

Shawn Tierney:

Uh, no I haven't.

John Rinaldi:

Uh, you know, that's, that's the standard for, uh, distributed PLC, you know, industrial computing and programming. Uh, it seems like I've been hearing a lot from, from some consultants that, that that's the way that things are going to go. There's a eclipses released some open source for dot for DIAC, for Dayak, uh, for that and all this, all this stuff, you know, but I have a hard time thinking about and believing that we will ever get past PLCs, at least in my lifetime. I think that there'll always be a lot of compute, uh, industrial computers. Maybe they won't be PLCs, but there'll be very ruggedized computers on the factory floor. And that they it'll be a long time before we get away from that. Don't you agree?

Shawn Tierney:

I, I don't think we ever want the, uh, the, um, operating system we are using, to play solitaire and browse the web to be the same one we rely on for our lives. And quite honestly, if, if one of these, if your PLC crashes, it could be a safety issue. We all know that if outputs come on at the wrong time, this is, this is where this is. This is where we have to be adults about it. We need rock hard, solid code. We cannot, we cannot, you know, solitaire and the web does not, does not. And 90% of the time it does not cut it in industrial manufacturing.

John Rinaldi:

Yeah, I agree. And I think, I think there's a lot of companies now that see a lot of money to be made on the factory floor, but they do not understand the rigorousness of that. I always talk about when I used to work for one of the big diaper manufacturers, they have 76 diaper machines that are producing 5,000 diapers a second. At least they were a number of years ago, maybe more now, but they come out of it like a machine gun. And you take the machine down for 10 minutes because of some problem, you you've literally cost them a hundred thousand dollars very quickly. So it's, uh, it's, you know, we have to do things that are much more reliable. And I think the best way to do that is just with programmable controllers. What do you see happening over the next few years? I've you, you haven't focused at all about any of the cloud interfaces, right? You're pretty much strictly, you know, the basic control system guy. Is that true?

Shawn Tierney:

Well, uh, w when it comes to my training, yes. When it comes to my show. So about two years ago, I took the automation blog, the automation podcast and the show, and all the other shows I took a multi-vendor. And so I have had a few different IOT IOT companies come on the podcast and talk about their solutions. And the one thing that I think I could say about all of those solutions that I've seen and I'm familiar with is really, they're just trying to take the existing players market share. There's nothing that any IOT peer person is doing that we weren't doing 20 years ago, they're doing what's unique to them is maybe use an MQTT to go across the internet to go to AWS. Well, that's their new, unique and exciting thing. And, and for read only data, right. I can definitely see a good reason to maybe have, especially if you're a small company to have your reports in the cloud, right? Your email's in the cloud, why not have your reports in the cloud, but, um, for your control system, I, it just, it makes no sense. So the internet goes down and now you can't make product. You know what I'm saying? And then there's intellectual property. There's your company secrets. This is the things that make your product special. You don't want that in the cloud. You don't want that on an AWS server, because, you know, as we've seen over the last several years, being on an AWS server, Azure, or any of these other servers doesn't mean your stuff is secure, right? They're routinely hacked. I mean, the people protecting the banks cannot protect billions and trillions of dollars. Why are you putting your, putting your, your, your precious, uh, intellectual property in their hands?

John Rinaldi:

Right. And one of the things that I've said too, is I've called a lot of these things that we're doing is that we it's now so easy to move data to the cloud out of a control system, that people are doing it Willy nilly without any, and, and, you know, I know of a company that I went to visit. They said, Hey, John, we just got our, we got our product connected to the cloud. The engineer says to me well now, do you know any idea what we could do with it? What can we get? How can we make money with this? Well, I said, you think you should have maybe thought about that before you started the project, but it's so easy to go grab some, some technology and add this graded account over there at AWS or an Azure and boom, boom, bang, bang. You're putting data in the cloud. And the big thing. And I don't know if you've dealt with this over time, is that a lot of in the industrial world a lot of the data is very obscure. And I mean, by obscure, I mean, some of it's in Fahrenheit, so it's in centigrade, it's scaled differently. It's all sorts of things, and it can't really be collected. It has to be normalized really, before it can be collected into a database, whether that database is local, it's middleware, or it's in the cloud. Correct?

Shawn Tierney:

Well, not only that, we'll take it one step further. The people who actually know how to use that data and make use of it. They're not in corporate headquarters, they're in the plan. I mean, do you want somebody in corporate headquarters saying we're going to run, we're not going to run 300 pounds per minute. We're going to run 400. Well, there may be a reason why you physically can't run 400 and the only people who are going to know that are going to be the people in the physical plant themselves. So, you know, it's great to have OEE and all this, uh, you know, statistics and information for corporate so they could see, you know, how efficient is my plan? Are we doing good? Um, but at the end of the day, the people who've really use most of the data are the people in the plant.

John Rinaldi:

Hmm. Yeah. I'm not sure what the, I haven't, I have no word that there's going to be another Allen-Bradley PLC made. I, I know they, they, they abandoned an effort a few years ago. Do you, do you have any, you know, our PLC is just going to get smaller and smaller or that we still going to be using mostly Allen-Bradley and Siemens over the next five to 10 years, or you think we'll be going to a lot more of these smaller PLCs from, uh, from other kinds of manufacturers?

Shawn Tierney:

Well, I think, you know, I think, you know, industrial automation is always lags behind all the other industries, right? So I think what we're going to see in an industrial automation, especially on the controls is that, um, you know, just like we see with vehicles, right? You just because you drive a Honda or Toyota or Chevy, you know, does not make you less of a, a safe car driver, right. And have less of a safe ride. All the manufacturers make great products, right. And they have, they have different market shares in different regions. But, um, I think over time, we're going to see a diversification. One of the smartest people I know who runs a large OEM shop, um, where they do some really high, high high-end, uh, processing for food. Um, you know, if he needs a product that does X, he just goes out and find who's who's best at that. Right. And if it's not Rockwell automation and not Siemens, two great products who have great lines, both products and Mitsubishi and PLC next, and, and, and the other guys, they all have great products, but I think you're going to start seeing people saying, look, we're not going to try to shoe on a product, into an application it's not good at, we need to use the right product for the right application. Right. Just because you can do just cause you can edit video and movie maker. I don't even know if they make movie maker anymore. Doesn't mean you're going to use that for production. Right. So, you know, uh, so there's Adobe premier, and there's other this Camtasia. If you do a screen recording, people are going to use what's best for the application. And there are some things that Siemens does better than a Rockwell. Some things Rockwell is better than Siemens and in Phoenix and WAGO and all these guys, they all have great products and they have really, uh, places where they are the, the leader in that application. I think we're going to see more of that. I think, you know, you don't consider yourself a programmer if you know, one language. I'm a programmer. and I only know C+ well, I don't know any programmers who call themselves a programmer because they mastered one single language. You have to be multi-disciplined, you have to be able to work with different, different, you know, JavaScript and, and, uh, you know, say shop.

John Rinaldi:

You think it is easier in the last few years to go from Allen-Bradley to Siemens, to WAGO to back off and all the rest in that case, isn't ladder logic much more standardized now than it was a few years ago?

Shawn Tierney:

You know, that's a great question. I would say yes and no. I mean, 6 11 31 that's three. I mean, you know, it's funny when you start looking at how Rockwell implemented that and how Siemens implemented that and how the other vendors implemented that because some of them and implement some of the instructions, like they're dead on there exactly as the standard states, but no, I haven't seen anybody and I'm sure there is somebody out there, but I'd love to have that person on my podcast. But, um, I haven't seen any vendor. Who's done that a hundred percent that, you know, so they're, they all have their, their, you know, specialties or changes or, or, you know, implementations. But again, if you do learn ladder logic of one, you know, what an another what's what the real challenge is, is finding your support people who can, you know, typically the typical support person from 20, 30 years ago, you know, they, they struggled to learn one PLC package. Right, right. And will the, w does the next generation of support people and I'm talking about electricians, and technicians, are they gonna, is there going to be a, you know, as they specialize in controls, will they be able to handle, you know, Rockwell, Siemens, Mitsubishi, WAGO?

John Rinaldi:

Well, you'd think you would see more of that because now the fastest, no, you need to be able to bias, you know, this particular machine is made in Japan. This other thing is made in Germany. This, this other thing is made in Michigan. So, you know, you've tried to put together the best pieces that you can get to build out a line and you're getting components that, well, that part is Siemens. And that part is Rockwell. That part is Mitsubishi I mean, it's hard to get around that now and say, we're just going to be an Allen-Bradley shop. We're just going to be a Siemens shop.

Shawn Tierney:

Yeah. And for the end user, though, if you think about the end user, typically it's three,$3,000 to play. So if somebody sends you a new PLC, it's typically, you know, it could be as low as$500, but it's, you know, if it's the bigger stuff, it's three grand to play. You know, if you want to, if you want to access the program in the controller, you're buying TA portal or TIA portal, or you're buying a studio 5,000 or leasing it. Um, but you know, it's, it's, it's not, it's when the software, in which it usually doesn't right, because there's not a lot of forethought that goes in on that part of the purchase when they're buying a machine, um, trying to maintain it, you know? And I think that's why that's a really good, valid reason why plants say we have standardized on X and that's all we want you to ship us because you know what, the maintenance budget doesn't have an extra three grand lying around, usually they're negative cause things break.

John Rinaldi:

Yeah. Isn't that the case, not only do you have to buy the license to the programming software, then you have, then the maintenance cost you an arm and a leg year after year after year.

Shawn Tierney:

Oh yeah. And that's, and that's, you know, it's different for every company, but it's something you may not use once a year. So it's hard to justify the cost. And so, no, there's, there's good reasons. You know, it's like, if you have a fleet of trucks, you're going to standardize on one type of truck, right. Because you want to have one parts, you want to go to one repair shop, um, you know, whether it's Max or Peterbilt or whatever. My father was a diesel mechanic for, for 50 years. So, you know, people would standardize their fleet on either Max or Peterbilt or something else. And, uh, for, for obvious reasons.

John Rinaldi:

Sure. We've seen that in industrial automation too. There are, there are plants to do that. And I remember talking to a guy and there's machine builders, certainly that do that too. You told me that if I go to, if I need a de-burring machine and I go to this vendor, he'll say, well, I can build it around Allen-Bradley with an Allen-Bradley PLC. If you want me to build it with a Siemens PLC, it'll be an extra hundred thousand dollars. And then if I can, and then you go to the other, the other machine builder, I can build it around Siemens, if you want an Allen-Bradley, it's an extra a hundred thousand. So that's, you know, they have their certain, their preferences because it's easier for them to, to build machines around product that they're familiar with and everything else. Before we w ere getting close to the end here, we have to talk a little bit, get your opinion on what's going to what's happening with security. Are we ever going to be able to secure the manufacturing floor? Is that an impossibility or are there things that you see that are actually going to get us start getting us there?

Shawn Tierney:

You know, you and I were talking about, I believe the, uh, the recent hacking of a town water system where somebody, I believe, and I it's been a month now, but I believe they, uh, got through an open VPN port and changed some of the critical settings to a much higher value, which thank God the operator was there in front of the SCADA system and saw a jump and immediately reset that set point. And, um, you know, and, and I think, I think we can be as secure as we want today. I mean, security is available today. Disconnect your plant floor from the internet. You do not need your plant floor connected to the internet. Now you may, if you need reports to go out to the unit,

John Rinaldi:

That is what you just said is heresy to a lot of people there. Do you know that?

Shawn Tierney:

Um, just look, if, if, if you don't remember when we didn't have the internet, if you don't remember where there was no thing called a web browser that didn't exist, we still made almost everything you have today. Right now I get that people need analytics, right. And I get, sometimes you need remote access, especially now with COVID. Right. And that's great. But if you leave here, if you, if you leave an open V V VPN port open, I mean, look what happened. I mean, a town could have got very sick, right?

John Rinaldi:

Well, yeah. I mean, if you steal credentials from somebody that, that has access to, uh, uh, a secure VPN port into some manufacturing system, you know, you can pretty much, once you're in, you can do anything you want, there's nothing, there's nothing preventing you from turning things on and turning things off and changing speeds and whatever you want to do.

Shawn Tierney:

Well. And, and that's why I think, you know, products like we had moxa on to talk about their VM VM, uh, VPN product, um, on automation tech tips, my, my, how to show on YouTube and you know what they're doing. I see a lot more people doing as well with the VPN products. You actually have a key, you have to stick into the unit to enable the remote access. And in their cases, a USB drive with a, with a special, uh, file on it. But, um, that type of that type of, Hey, it's connected, but it just doesn't work until you plug this thing in is what I think is kind of the best of both worlds. If you need somebody to remotely access, you know, let's say an OEM and they're overseas, they got remotely access the machine to take a look at it and try to fix an issue or put in some new code though, to, you know, so they could make a new product, you know, giving them that access and defining online, who can access what, and then enabling that with a physical key that the supervisor has on his, you know, his key chain with all his other stuff, you know, he can go in, he can put that in. He says, okay guys, I'm setting my watch here. You got an hour. I'm going to yank it unless you let me know, you need more time. You know, that type of security is great for remote access, but just leave them ports open all the time. I, I, for anybody who's, who's never connected their computer directly to the internet. I'm not saying it through your router. I'm saying, take your computer plugged directly into your cable modem. Okay. And it'll be hacked within 24 hours. You know, this was something that was very common in the late nineties, early two thousands as well started getting nice speed. And yeah, I put, I put a server online and RSV 32 server online. It was con it was hacked daily. It was constantly hacked daily. Um, there, there is. There, there the internet, unfortunately we hit, while we have physical customs for our country, we don't have digital customs. So anybody in the world can access our co countries network and hack wherever they want.

John Rinaldi:

Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's, it's something that's becoming more and more critical. There's been more, you read about more and more facts every day. And, and probably we don't, the ones we don't read about are the ones that even more, we'd be more scary. Oh yeah. So if any, it's, it's, we've come to the end of our, of our time here. Uh, somebody wants to get ahold of you, Shawn, how do they find you?

Shawn Tierney:

Yeah. The best way to find me is at theautomationblog.com or if you need some affordable training, theautomationschool.com.

John Rinaldi:

Well, thank you very much. I mean, I'm sure we could have probably gone and talked another hour or two hours, but, uh, this has been a great overview. You're doing great work there, everybody, you know, we hear nothing, but, but good, good things about the kinds of training that you do. So I would highly recommend everybody to, to, uh, to check out Shawn's stuff. Uh it's it's it really is excellent. So thank you very much, everyone. We will be back with a, another edition of the network connectivity podcast very shortly, and we'll look forward to talking to you, then have a great day![ End music].